Le débat, plutôt velu....
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And after this deeply despressing document
here we are with some actors
who face each in their role
the drama of pedophilia.
First Frederique Bredin,
Socialist MP of Seine-Maritime
and Rapporteur of the "Guigou law"
about the Punishment of Sexual Crimes
Martine Bouillon, prosecutor by the Courts of Bobigny
Martine Nisse, who is a family therapist
and co-founder of the Therapy Centre of the "Buttes-Chaumont"
George Glatz, seen in this document
who is MP of Lausanne, founder of the Committee internationnal
for the Dignity of the Child (CIDE)
And finally the chief commissioner, Jean Yves Leguennec
who is head of the "departmental safety of Hauts-de-Seine"
and where he leads a Minors'brigade.
Firstly thank you all for being here with us.
Then Jean Yves Leguennec, you're quite a little the police representative here, so how goes a child's audition
in a Minors'brigade when a child arrives?
Is the officer alone with this child,
or is he assisted by a doctor, a psychologist?
- So at first there are two ways to receive a child.
As you know, legislation has been passed by parliament in June 98
and now requires in some cases
to make the video recording of the interview with the child.
That said, this law was implemented in June 99
and we have not enough background,
and all the children we get to the Minors'brigade
are not heard in these conditions.
- I was just going to say, the law requires
that they are heard in these conditions but are they really?
Is the law applied?
Is it applied everywhere?
- Some are actually heard in such conditions
and some in other more traditional conditions,
like before,
i.e it actually happens
in the camera of an office, between a judiciary police officer
and the child and this office is not a traditional police office,
we have installed in the offices of the Minors'brigade
2 parts , a kind of game part
and one more traditional and administrative part.
- But, frankly, do you feel
that officers who receive this kind of evidence
are trained enough?
They are not doctors, they are not therapists.
Do you feel that their work is not a bit too heavy for them all alone
faced with this child?
- Of course it is a heavy work.
It is a difficult work
which requires much rigor but also a lot of personal investment
but they are trained for this, they are trained to do this work
and I think their results on a general plan
are good.
- So you apparently provoke some reactions,
we begin by Frederique Bredin and then Martine Nisse.
- Well first I want to say that the story we have just seen is very
moving, and especially terrifying.
If the facts which are shown in this report are true,
it still shows a number of shortcomings,
delays in the investigation as well as judiciary than from the police,
which could really justify an inspection of the Chancellery to see what
it is all about, and how it could happen.
It's about the "leaks" which helped the father, even if it could be
something else, but the father was suspected.
It's about a lack of listening, about a confrontation totally unmastered
in the office of the police, with a sort of wild revival.
It's about the absence of psychiatric examination, or about the non-
listening to a number of experts during the investigation, so there is a whole series of things that really leaves speechless.
And who should really make you think about them,
if the things we have seen are true, just as I said ...
- They are following an investigation of a year and a half, I remind you.
- Listen, this is not only surprising, but also shocking for all viewers.
The second thing that seems shocking to me and let me bounce back to what you just said,
is that because the french MPs decided to pass a law against
sexual offenses,
I think quite important in 1998,
which provided on 1 side to strengthen punishment for the perpetrators,
to provide a possible psychiatric follow-up of them out of prison,
to prevent recurrences,
but which also provided,
and that is the subject of our discussion,
a series of measures for child victims,
and one thing that was expected,
and it's been hours and hours of debate,
was that children would be interviewed only once,
through a video recording.
What you seem to say is that it is not applied.
- Yes.
- What is great when you organize debates on TV is that it helps to know where we are in law enforcement...
- I think we can go further.
Frankly what is found in reality is that there are many places where
children cannot be heard like this ...
- It has been hours of discussion,
and therefore you cannot make the recording if the child refuses, or his legal representative.
Apart from this very specific case there must be systematically audio
recording, it is what the legislator intended.
While it is possible that the legislator makes laws for nothing,
that the implementing regulations are useless,
but I feel that this audio recording is absolutely essential, we can see
it clearly in the report that has been shown,
to avoid the children to repeat 20 times the same facts that are
obviously extremely traumatic.
- Yes.
- And also another reason why I emphasize about this audio recording,
it can also be clearly seen in the film, is that the
word of the child is not necessarily extremely logic.
- When you say audio, it is both audio and video...
- Yes, audiovisual.
- We see the child's face, and can also track his/her movements...
What is very important as we shall see later.
- Yes, it is very important because we can see that the word of the child is not very structured,
this is horribly traumatic memories,
as a psychiatrist said, you must "pick up the pieces" of fragmented
memories,
and silences and gestures are as important as the word of the child.
- Martine Bouillon I saw you just reacting to Jean Yves Leguennec's
speech, do you sometimes feel that children are not heard as they should be?
- I think, to respond to what has been said so far,
and to respond to what has been said about the document,
I am completely upset by this story.
I can tell you what I noticed most in the eyes,
I really wasn't expecting to see that,
I mean that I met a kid who made me a drawing,
exactly the same as the drawing of the girl!
It might be asking questions?!
First thing.
Second thing,
and who has no connection with the kids here in this video,
second thing,
what we see from these children in the video evidences
precisely is what they don't say,
it is this extraordinary suffering.
So I do not know, but how can we say that it is unimaginable,
and then stop to say it's unbelievable!?
So what is unimaginable,
which was unimaginable 100 years ago, happened yet.
So why don't we go a little further?
And why don't we take into account just the pain that we perceive, which is palpable in this story?
To me, I really have no doubt about the suffering of these children.
- Martine Bouillon let me ask you another question because we just discuss the training of police, and the difficulty in establishing...
- They are not trained! They are no more trained than magistrates.
- Well, exactly.
-"They are trained", it sounds very good on TV, but it's
not true, they aren't trained for that, or haven't been.
Not even the psychiatrists and psychologists, when one has studied the problem with the law of 97-98 it was found that there were very few trainers, because very few people were informed.
There is no mandatory training, there are courses available,
there are people who are interested in a number of things and do
internships in-service training,
but there is no mandatory training or a particular type
of training required for a particular person
who would take care of a particular function...
- It's like in Besançon where police and gendarmes are helped by
psychiatrists ...
- We are starting to put in place since the law of 98 courses,
but there are not any mandatory training !
- I can not let say that police officers of the Minors'brigade are not
trained, are not trained enough that's your point of view,
but we can not say they are not trained.
Officials of my Minors'brigade, actually as judges,
receive general training,
but from the moment they are serving in a brigade of minors,
they receive special training, they are actually ...
- What do you call this specific training?
We would like to know.
Who make this training? These are psychiatrists, psychologists?
And how long does it last, too?
- This training is implemented by the Ministry of Interior,
which is made by people who are outside the police!
- Jean-Yves Leguennec frankly,
don't you feel that in this type of hearing,
i was going to say very kind, the last term is a misnomer,
it would be prudent for police to be accompanied by a doctor,
a therapist, a psychiatrist in order to help them through this kind of
hearing, because it should not be easy for them either?
- There are pilot sites in France, which have provided the problem and
make the children's hearings nor either in police or gendarmerie but at the hospital with a pychiatre.
- But should not it be mandatory?
- The law came out in '98 anyway, the time it starts up and we get enough distance one can not say yet ...
- This is what I meant earlier, Ms. Bredin, that law enforcement is taking place.
In my department there is a recording studio,
which was put in place and where we make records,
but all cases are not subject to registration,
as indeed we must obtain authorization from the victim or the
representative of the victim, moreover the judge who is in charge of the case has something to say.
So there are a number of issues that are the subject of records,
and some others not.
- I would like also to have the opinion of Martine Nisse,
who is a therapist and family therapist,
who is co-founder of the Therapy Centre des Buttes-Chaumont.
We saw in this document a particularly difficult confrontation for this
little Marie.
First issue which is out of this case,
is the confrontation a good thing for children who have experienced such sexual abuses, or not?
- Then there is a difference between prepubertal children and adolescents.
Often teenagers want confrontation,
because they want to battle in a way,
but regarding children, small children,
it is very complicated because we must say something about the trauma.
The trauma of this nature, sexual agression,
triggers psychological effects which are quite specific and which make
inside the victim a kind of psychological dissociation.
It means that the child's body is there, to make it short,
and his head is otherwhere in order to be able to survive the event,
and it allows him somewhere to keep a rather good,
quite ideal vision of the person who has attacked him/her,
and that's why you see these children in the confrontations could jump on the neck of their father or their mother when he said just before he was raped by one.
It's very complicated to put in place to capture the nature of this
communication that the child will develop in the confrontation,
where a glance from his/her attacker terrifies him/her,
and conditions him/her to show something else than fear.
- And what do you think of this confrontation there?
- The confrontation here is absolutely incredible,
of course I share the emotion of Madame Bredin,
but I'll probably say something that will shock too.
Nothing is more traumatic than the rape itself,
and we must not imagine that the police investigation,
or legal proceedings, will traumatize in an even more painful way the
child who have already been, it is untrue.
it even has a release effect on the child.
And besides what we saw in the video,
that is to say, the child drew and explained to journalists,
the child could cry.
These children, when they are at the beginning of the therapy work,
they are emotionally anesthetized.
There is no expression or fear or tears.
- A central question of this document,
can a child under 8 or 9 invent such trauma?
- It's absolutely impossible.
I will use the phrase of Mr. Aries,
it's unbelievable, in the sense of the word,
a child can not imagine that.
I've never seen it.
- George Glatz:
- I would like to go back to your original question.
In France or at least what I hear,
most intra-family abuses aren't too problematic when they are handled by justice, but I notice when there are abuses that affect a community where children are given to multiple partners,
then suddenly we see many blunders!
There will be time to return to it,
but actually statements like those we just heard,
I've seen many in Switzerland, people who fled France,
mothers who leave with a suitcase and who leave ...
- With their two children?
-... With their two children, yes.
But with respect, I would like to respond about the hearing as it was practiced for the 2 children we have seen.
When we sit and kneel a child to see if the meter is actually well up to
height of sex, since it's written:
"let the child put on his knees and measure up to his face from the feet, note that this height from feet coincides with the location of the sex of Mr."
Doing that in a confrontation, it is a second rape of a child in my opinion.
We don't have to do that,
i mean put a child on her knees before a presumed abuser,
but still presumed.
- Jean-Yves Leguennec.
- But I must say that the confrontation between a small child and the
alleged perpetrator is, in our case, the Minor's brigade that I lead,
is very unusual, and happens in very special conditions .
That is to say that we avoid that the child can see and be seen by the
author, if you want it causes them to turn back,
we make sure they do not talk,
so we are really trying to avoid any pressure being exerted on the child.
And I absolutely agree that the law was passed in '98 will prevent such problems.
- I'd really like to ask a specific question in relation to what you said
Martine Nisse,
you say it is unimaginable to think that children of 8 or 9 years or
less, of course, have invented such stories .
So let me ask you a specific question,
how do you explain the fact that the two child psychiatrists who followed Pierre and Marie have never been heard by the judge?
They made the request, and they have never received any response.
So how is it understandable, that?
Martine Bouillon?
- You know that Zorro, fairytales, it is in the imagination of children,
it is what the father said...
But I do not think they imagine things such as children with head on a
spike and so on...
So how is it conceivable?
The magistrates do not usually hear directly therapists, whatsoever, for the simple reason is that therapists usually have always wanted to hide behind professionnal secrecy.
- Besides, it is not the case, they asked to be heard.
- It is a usual approach I could say, the judge who will not seek the
therapist, then you say they have asked to be heard...
- And they have received no response.
- It is not conceivable that they are not heard.
If you want, one comes to understand that pedophilia existed.
We can not yet understand that there is even worse than the pedophilia I would say "simple".
There are people who still resist these cases with all their might and all their inside, and obviously the judge ther who is saying in his order
"that is so unthinkable that it is not credible",
she is resisting and she will resist forever.
- So you've highlighted a problem that exists and which is important,
it is actually a problem for doctors who report these cases because there are indeed obliged to violate professional secrecy,
and they may be removed by College of Doctors,
it has already happened.
Frédérique Bredin I think you have considered the possibility of developments in this field.
- They are extremely sensitive topics,
because it is true that the accusations and charges once they are brought they also mark people for life.
Of course the children and then those they accuse.
If this is true we must show no mercy,
if I am wrong it can break someone's life.
So we also understand the sensitivity how judges or police officers to
respect the rights of defense, and to be careful in their investigations.
But it is true that so far those who have dared to break the code of
silence are rare, and those who had the courage to do today sometimes find themselves in very difficult situations because they are being question by cases where they were challenged by their children, and that leads by example a nonsuit,
and then they turned against the doctor,
for example, or against the person who "alerted" the judges or police,
and they may be subject to harsh professionnal processes.
- Is it possible to protect them in a better way?
- We should probably now extend the protection of professionals who report cases difficult.
- I see more and more procedures of false accusations that were operating as soon as there is a non-place,
the slander is suspected.
- So is there not also a problem right now with the divorce proceedings?
There's a sense now that if there is a pending divorce proceedings the
judge has a lot of trouble in believing children.
- To believe in the mother and in the children, yes.
I immediately think ...
There were a few cases,
it is true that there are some,
they said the credibility of children, of small children ...
- 3-6% false allegations believed physicians.
- 3-6% said Mr. Aries or how? whatever.
It is true that there are some, but we're adults,
we must check very quickly when a child lies.
When a child begins to tell us the story of someone else we see it very quickly,
and when we do not really want to go really in those cases we have always the opportunity to say:
" Oh, it's still a story of divorce, so it is a story invented by the
mother", and so on...
I'm not saying it's dishonest, I say inwardly, unconsciously,
they have there a pretext for dismissing the case on the dark side of the mind, of which they do not have the map.
- Justice did not know in France?
- Wait, JY Leguennec first, and then George Glatz.
- Yes, we know when we have before us a record, that in divorce cases there may be a problem,
the best way to remove the father's right of visit is to accuse him of
sexual abuses, we know that.
- We see that no, he get the children back!!!
- Wait ...
- The document tries to prove something different,
not necessarily the opposite, but ...
- This is single case.
- Oh no! This is not a single case, no!
- No, but what I am saying is that we, as police officers or as magistrates, must be extremely cautious,
as Ms. Bredin said just now, it is a very serious charge,
so we take maximum precautions, we try to be as vigilant as possible, and then regarding the child's speech, there is the policeman of course, but more often we use,
through an application, which is generally applied by the magistrate,
to review the credibility of the word of the child,
and the child is received outside the police service by a psychologist
who will listen again, and will assess the credibility.
- But sir, the child is sometimes heard only for two or three hours,
do you feel that a child under 8 years can confide in less than two or
three hours and give such a trauma to a doctor that they will see only
once, whereas we do not call for therapists who have seen them for six months?
- No, no, but, um...
a review of credibility is to say that we try to rely on a specialist
other than a specialist from police course,
to check if what the child says is credible.
Well, it's not mathematical, of course,
so we'll have to support our procedure for the decision of the magistrate because he will make the decision.
Based on our record, and then on this credibility checking.
And from there he will take a decision.
- Martine Nisse first, and then we'll talk about networks.
- I just would like to emphasize that it is a habit,
which seems to us totally obvious,
that is to ask an expert credibility of the child.
No one ever asks for the presumed person's expertise of credibility,
it is always on the child.
- You mean presumed guilty or innocent?
- Yes we have seen, we always ask it for the child,
to check if he lies or not,
this question does not arise for adults.
- It's not just the child.
- Yes I know, but finally it is never asked that way.
- Yes, adults who are victims of rape,
have a review of credibility,
the same as that of children.
- Yes, but I'm talking about people who are indicted,
who could be responsible, and defendants.
- And a psychiatric report is not ...
- ... is not an expertise in credibility, it's still interesting...
- If you ...
- I have not finished, just one more thing, excuse me,
I listened to what was happening here, and I thought that what mattered is that you can move towards a better understanding of the pervert functioning of these adults using children sexually in these pedophile networks, or sectarians networks .
That is to say that it's not, of course we need to learn more about these victims, to protect them better,
but I truly believe that a lack of knowledge of how quasi-hypnotic these people have on various stakeholders - examining magistrate - a grip so strong that they say "yes the child is lying."
- Listen, it comes right because we will address the last part of the
debate, which is a key issue after the document we have just seen,
there has been talk of sectarian organization, it was heard in the document of traffic, of murders of children, particularly from abroad, but not only, but does that mean,
and here I am turning to you Georges Glatz,
that there are in France organized pedophile networks ?
- I am totally convinced and some others as well.
Although we try to believe that there are no networks.
We have recently heard judges say that there were no networks.
Yes, the police also.
I believe that in order to understand the phenomenon of pedophilia we must identify 3 sectors.
The first sector is one of pedophilia "classic", intrafamilial sex abuse.
It focuses not, it does not affect the networks.
Then there are the pedophiles attacking a child out of school,
it often ends tragically with the death of the child,
he doesn't want to leave an embarrassing witness.
Yet it doesn't touches networks.
Third form of pedophilia,
child abuse called "institutional" as obviously, those who love children and the ownership of their bodies,
will look for occupations that will more easily put them in contact with
children.
For example it will be scout leaders, perhaps priests, policemen, judges, that's not me who says it's a prosecutor - we will return on it - educators, social workers etc..
Because it is the technique of the Trojan.
When a pedophile happens to insinuate himself into an institution,
often in an important post, he brings other pedophiles.
Obviously if you want to work quietly,
safely, to be sure not to be identified, you will if possible work in an
institution for mentally handicapped people.
So there will be no problems, they can actually easily abuse children.
And that's not yet the networks.
- You confirm to us tonight that there are networks in France?
- Yes, yes, I'll bring some elements.
I think we should consider at this time when it comes to networks, in
economic terms.
Because it is a market. A lucrative market.
Videos of snuff-movies sell for between 10,000 and 20,000 Swiss Francs.
- What do you mean by snuff-movies?
- Films with deaths of real children.
So yes, these videos exist for years, in Belgium we discovered some,
but we actually speaks very little about it in the media.
But they exist.
Besides Mrs. Gina Bernart" who had sent the CD-ROM with several photos of children ...
- Yes it will be investigated further.
- ...And who died, and who said she had a cd-rom to send us and give to justice.
Unfortunately she died in rather mysterious circumstances,
and I could never give anything to justice.
So I said from an economic perspective.
There has been some years ago those pedophiles who went to extreme-orient to consume children, in Asia, in Bangkok ...
If you make a business of it, it was found in a Swiss travel agency that traded in that, but is not very profitable,
because "unfortunately" these pedophiles can go only once or twice a year there, so if you want to accelerate the market you'll bring the object of consumption to the consumer.
That's to say the children, and there are organized networks.
Thus on the Mediterranean, in some countries - Morocco - there are centers where pedophiles go.
Only 1 hour flight, a business trip as a reason,
with the blessing of the family, then you come back.
- There you still talk about travelings, but are there any organized
networks in France?
- Actually there are organized networks, structures,
where an area get infiltrated, we have what we call protective fabrics,
compared to the bench, compared to the police,
and you need children "fishponds", these are the institutions.
Listen you seem ....
This is from Reuters, which is quite recent,
the prosecutor of Nice, Eric de Montgolfier,
Nice is still a pretty hot area,
said a case of suspected children abuses directed against judges had been voluntarily stifled by the justice etc...
Here is what the prosecutor Eric de Montgolfier said...
- We will listen JY Le Guennec who represents the police,
and then Martine Bouillon for judges.
- I can not give you any information,
I can not give you a scoop tonight,
I personally have never had to deal with such issues,
I've never heard of supply networks of children.
Indeed, sex tourism in Thailand,
all that I can tell you for having arrested pedophiles,
and have found their agenda airline tickets,
I know perfectly well that this is something that exists,
I never heard of children on the French territory,
who have been provided by the networks...
- You are telling us that it's like the Chernobyl cloud, it stopped at the
French border?
- Not at all! I have not said that ... I do not know!
- Excuse me, but when children are involved in so-called orgies,
with many people, it is the early formation of a network,
let us be precise!
- I am talking of things that I deal daily.
- So I can tell you ...
- I have not had any case,
I do not say that it does not exist,
I say that I have not personally experienced.
I told you that you can see it,
the prosecutor of Nice said some judges had hidden pedophilia cases.
- I have not practiced in Nice, I do not know what is happening in Nice.
- But it is in France! Let me tell you, I know that...
- No but the problem Mr. Glatz...
- I do not blame you, but there are cases that exist!
- I don't feel charged, I mean that our problem as policemen,
is not pedophile networks, it's everyday and ordinary pedophilia.
- There are no problems with it, in principle ...
- It is that which exists in large numbers,
it's that too that we should cover!
- Sure, but you master it more or less.
But why in five years nothing has happened?
- But why you react so vehemently?
- Because I want to talk about things which are true, no ... uh ...
actually if you bring me the proof, if during an investigation ...
- Shouldn't you look by yourself for the evidence?
- Oh, uh no, ah yes indeed, but from investigations already begun,
if you give us the information...
I mean, we work every day in this domain,
so about the pedophile supply of images via the Internet,
all that does exist, I agree,
I will not tell you it does not exist.
- I do not doubt that you work very well,
but some work very bad, that's what we mean!
- It's not the problem, when you want the information you just go for it!
- Martine Bouillon:
- And here we will not get it!
I'm sorry but I have been substitute minors in Seine-St-Denis for a
year, there was not a single child who took drugs in Seine-St-Denis!
I'm sorry, I have not seen a single procedure for children who used drugs in seine-st-denis, I have not seen any!
It does not mean that there are no children who take drugs in Seine-st-denis.
There are, of course!
- I have a specific question ...
- I say that at some point you're telling us "I do my job",
I do not doubt about it for one intant.
I say that you're not curious enough,
you know perfectly well that pedophile networks exist in France!
They exist in Spain, they exist in Italy,
they exist in Belgium, and from Belgium to go to Spain ...
- What is the definition you give to a pedophile network?
That's the problem!
- Let me finish then I'll give you the definition of "network".
From Italy to Belgium, or from Spain to Belgium don't we pass through France?
So I know I'm bad at geography, but even so,
France is there in the middle.
- I did not say it doesn't exist.
- What is a network?
This is a group of people who have common interests,
in this case children, and who trade or not,
who use the child in network, that is ie not at home, not in small groups, but large committee.
- It's mafia networks, as we will not say it we can not solve the problem of pedophilia ...
- I have said it many times.
- We are in a state of law,
I can not afford to tell from the moment I have no proof that children
are going to be abused like that.
What I actually know Madame is that pedophiles moving images,
so if that's what you call the network I totally agree with you.
- No, no, we talked about providing children!
- It's not the same!
- The death of Pastor Doucet, still not cleared up! All those cases ...
- I am talking about records that I know.
- I am talking about NETWORKS.
- I can only speak of the files that I know not what I do not know.
- Frederique Bredin:
- Yes, do networks exist and what types of networks,
it is indeed difficult to establish because by definition they are not
well known, but I think what is important to say, the solution is in collective awareness.
Since the past 10 years in France I found a huge progress has been made, and now it's up to everyone to know not only just listen to children, but also look around, and eventually have the courage to talk if he feels that something abnormal is taking place.
It is true that the police can not self-refer to facts on mere rumors.
- Sure.
- They can make inquiries anyway ...
- But certainly there's a law of silence that has lasted for years and
years, and it's up to each adults to know how to listen and possibly go
denouncing the facts which seem criminals.
- Where is the loyalty to policies?
because I heard that little sentence anyway,
"the mills are reserved for major traffickers",
so if you're not a major trafficker when it's about human flesh,
what do you need to traffic to be so!?
- And the judge?
- So for the inquiry there is much to say,
I say from the beginning this inquiry seems strangely conducted,
with gaps, delays and big anomalies,
then I think we should not .. .
- Wait we come back specifically to this investigation,
and back over the claims of Marie and Sylvie,
about the murdered children,
since the course was very clear in this story because many times children have terminated these facts,
do you have already heard that there was in France,
I say here in France, sacrifices and mass graves of children?
- Yes, Florian , a known case, Aurore, Amy, St. Victor, these are known
cases, they say exactly ...
Florian said he saw children in coffins,
his testimony was entirely credible by all experts who have seen him,
and this child is currently a fugitive in the U.S. with his mother.
Same thing for Aurore.
- Has there been any open instructions?
- Yes there were instructions, but actually, unfortunately, made in Nice, and Nice as finally being told by the prosecutor Montgolfier,
there were blankets that things were not successful,
I can tell you that I hear the investigations,
in view of experts and multidisciplinary committees that set,
because we do things a bit seriously,
in the multi-disciplinary committees that have studied these issues,
and they are big,
have shown that work has been very badly done!
- Martine Bouillon.
- For Nice I do not know,
but I know and I can tell you that in Paris Area (région parisiennne),
I actually learned of MASS GRAVES OF CHILDREN,
I weigh my words,
I would not say more because there is an ongoing investigation,
but here it is...
- It is extremely serious what is said here, it's extremely grave,
Frederique Bredin you have a reaction?
- This is absolutely...frightening.
But I want to say maybe just a word on it,
why is it so difficult to understand, so difficult for everyone?
It is that it is unthinkable, that is why on the one hand
- we have said it in the first part of the debate -
the victims are not only children but they feel guilty,
that's the problem with the speech,
it is that perversity makes the guilt is reversed,
and that the victim feels guilty,
and possibly more of a family drama,
in addition to being guilty of any "judiciary death" of his/her parent.
So there's a big challenge for the child to talk and to all those,
policemen, magistrates, and all of us when we hear these stories,
no doubt a great difficulty to understand,
because we are in the domain of the inconceivable.
We must overcome that and say that it exists.
- Jean-Yves Leguennec:
- No, but I must say though, that ...
I have 10 years of hindsight eh,
it's been 10 years since I lead a brigade of minors,
in 10 years there has been enormous change,
that is to say that every year we see an increase of 25% of number of cases before us, it means that people talk,
people respond.
So effectively we have children more and more young as victims.
I remember when I arrived there were many cases involving teenagers and these were matters which were often very very heavy.
Now, more and more, whenever there is suspicion,
as there is anything, there is reporting.
And it is obvious that the consequences for children are lower where they are simply touched,
it's much less serious than those involving sexual relations repeatedly
over several months.
- The final word, Martine Nisse, I would like to ask you a question ...
- These aren't sexual relations, these are rapes.
- Yes, of course these are rapes.
- Just one important question to ask,
which I think is very important for children,
what are the consequences for children when there were rapes,
when there were sexual abuses,
but moreover a denial of suffering?
That is to say that justice does not recognize ...
- They are children who are in danger of death.
These are suicidal children, which will risk being hit by passing all the time in front of cars, get off balance on the windowsill,
they won't be able to work at school.
They say "I can no longer remember, but I can not concentrate",
they also have an excitement that was triggered by the sexual assault, which maintains a constant stress,
which triggers at home sexualized behaviors that have consequences also on their brother and sister, or on other children...
I mean, the consequences are extreme, despite all feelings of faintness and somatizations the GP was talking about,
you have everything ...
There was talk of drug addiction,
alcoholism, there are plenty of symptoms following the abuses if the
child's testimony is not taken into account,
if there is no judicial procedure,
because at this time when we recognize that this child was the victim of something, he can leave this state of victim.
- A final word George Glatz,
do you feel this sense of indulgence here in France toward sexual crimes is now gradually receding?
- But regarding the cases considered "classics", it has made great
progress.
But in terms of networks, it is not moving!
And really it is not moving enough.
I believe that political power must now meet its requirements and create highly independent cells to conduct these surveys where we touch the networks.
For networks exist and I actually confirms the stories of mass graves.
I heard two years ago in high french circles affecting Interpol.
- Thank you all for participating in this program.
Here are the books that helped us to prepare it.
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Translation made by the NOSTRAD team,
Thanks for your attention.
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Ca serait pas mal de rajouter ça, en espérant que ça se retourne pas
contre lui:
A word to mention that Pascal Taponier who participated in making the
original documentary, is hostage to terrorists in afghanistan for more than 6 months at the time we end the translation work.
God bless him!
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Eventuellement une signature:
Please share this video, speak about it...
The law of silence has no more reason to exist,
"The Words are our Sword."
"The truth will set us free".
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pour l'aide à l'incrust!
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